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Post by fiurulez on Sept 14, 2006 16:01:42 GMT -5
Imo, Sweethingyer is a community that is just now overcoming a very difficult past, to put that 'ton of bricks' on its chest right now, just might kill it. What difficult past? Ask around Sweethingyer and you'll see how many people would love to have the line going down 107th. Why are you so against it anyway? It's not like you live on the proposed line, or do you? If that's the case, I understand why you're pissed. Yes, Russian midgets.
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Post by FIUFan on Sept 14, 2006 17:38:31 GMT -5
What difficult past? Ask around Sweethingyer and you'll see how many people would love to have the line going down 107th. Why are you so against it anyway? It's not like you live on the proposed line, or do you? If that's the case, I understand why you're pissed. Uh, let's see. For the longest time any time it rained, you'd get 6 feet of water in your street. Those apartments on the corner of 8th and 107 were notorious for drugs and shootings. The area wasn't really the most desirable. But things are changing for the better. I think Pepe Diaz did a good job with that area in the 90's and it's looking rather respectable. That's where my comment comes from. They have a chance to make that a really nice area. And no, as my profile states, I do not live in Sweethingyer. And I don't know what comments I've made to make you think that I'm pi$$ed about anything. I just think that Sweethingyer would be overwhelmed by that line going through there. Once again, if the 'majority' of people wanted that line coming down 107th, the Mayor would not be so apprehensive about it. I'm surprised you living there would want it; seems to me it would lower property values. Why do you want it there?
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Post by FIU4Life on Sept 14, 2006 19:59:41 GMT -5
IMO, it is false to say Sweethingyer's property values would drop if a metro line ran through their city...maybe so during construction but certainly not so long term. If you have ever lived, or are familiar with, a city that boasts a quasi-decent metro system you will know stops along metro lines are much in demand. If indeed one day our metro appeals to the masses and the stops are useful, well though-out, and connects with the tri-county, Sweethingyer could see property values skyrocket. Just look at buildings in downtown near a stop or Dadeland (i.e stops that infiltrate the core of a residential neighborhood, like Sweethingyer). There are pros and cons, but I doubt property values will be a con.
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Post by Steve on Sept 14, 2006 22:17:16 GMT -5
While we are talking about well thought-out systems and property values....
People like to compare the new expansion to what has happened to neighborhoods like Pinecrest, Coral Gables, South Miami, and other municipalities on the southern end of the current system. The problem here is that those are areas that were already wealthy and afluent prior to the transit system being put through there. When you actually compare the benefits to poorer areas, the results are a little less encouraging. Generally, the places where Metrorail has been effective and productive is where it has been constructed without impeding on the current community in any way. An example of this is in the southern portion of metrorail being constructed on the former Florida East Coast Railway lines that used to run along US1. The northern segment had to procure right-of-way and then essentially carve the route out of the cities through which they pass.
Areas such as western Coconut Grove, Overtown, Liberty City, Miami Springs, and Hialeah around the transit line are still struggling today. Crime is still high in those areas and housing values are still low. Where the success stories have come about are from joint development projects associated with the metrorail stations. At the stations with joint development, the county has put money to construct buildings and offices on the property owned by the transit authority. When Joint Development is combined with Urban Renewal Zones and other such community improvement plans, that yields results. Sweethingyer would not really benefit from either of these things though.
Sweethingyer, while poor, is not poor enough for federal money for community redevelopment. In addition to this, the opportunity for joint development at the FIU Engineering campus is very limited or else it would begin to impede on the expandability of that campus. In addition to the limited joint development space, this would bring more traffic to the area as commuters travel from the west to that speciffic station.
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Post by Steve on Sept 14, 2006 22:37:10 GMT -5
As we also talk about a "well planned" system, we need to take into account expandability of the system....
If we continue the line down 107th avenue, we enter an area that is less receptive to new transit projects in their area; middle-class single-family homes. This groups resistance to transit development of this nature has been seen in the East-West planning meeting for the Flagami area. At that meeting, residents blew up on county officials and practically threw chairs over the prospect of metrorail passing through their neighborhood.
All is not lost completely though; the line can travel down the corridore that the power distribution lines travel down. Those lines merge with 107th around Bird Road (SW 40th Street) and jog to the east around Miller Drive (SW 56 Street). After Miller, the line would have to move back onto 107th avenue and straddle it until roughly Sunset Drive. At that point, it could follow the Snapper Creek Canal and eventually run into the Dadeland North Metrorail station.
The problem with following these lines is that the lines themselves would have to be somehow reduced in size as to not impede with transit development. Additionally, they pass through some pretty affluent areas and would face some real protests in the future if they were used for development The line would then be right in the middle of residential neighborhoods that have done such things as turn down bridge construction because of the added traffic. This would greatly increase the traffic to those neighborhoods and would most likely be turned down by residents of that area.
Another possible alternative would be to chop out part of Tamiami Park and send the line down Coral Way and then follow the inital alignment down 117th avenue. The problem with this option would be that it would remove a significant chunk of the fairgrounds and possibly even force a relocation of the fair (not a problem in my book... I hate how it takes my parking!). The problem with this option is that it would cost more and lead to more noise since these trains make more noise on turns (the turns to get to 117th would be on the corner of coral way and 107th leading to noise for those houses as well as on coral way and 117th leading to possibly more noise complaints from those homes.
Basic summary, when we consider a system that is a well though-out system, then we must aloso consider the expandability of the system in the future as well as the needs of the community and potential parking and joint development
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Post by FIU4Life on Sept 14, 2006 22:49:49 GMT -5
Not sure how Miami Springs got lumped in there, God knows property values are not suffering there, but nevertheless the poorer areas are exactly who would benefit in the long run in an effective mass transit system...I'm assuming here we can all agree the original metrolrail plan was flawed and far from being effective. It's difficult to say any stretch of the current rail is a good example of a "worth-the-money" rail transit system, except maybe the metro-mover in downtown...inevitably those that will use mass transit the most are those of lower means, consequently, that includes middle-class neighborhoods like Sweethingyer, but such a system will only be as successful as its destinations. Unfortunately, due to urban sprawl, a successful rail transit system is quiet a challenge, but side-stepping where people live in order to avoid temporary disruptions could result in the same transit system we are currently burdened with.
Whether a 107 line is beneficial to FIU is a different story, although such could one day enable a closer tie with Sweethingyer, even possibly driving acquisition of property along the line for further university development which could drive private business development targeting FIU (i.e. bars, restaraunts, apartments, etc), such could also result in a negative impact to campus development. But in the long run, which is most important to this community?
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Post by Steve on Sept 14, 2006 22:51:39 GMT -5
now getting away from my objective point of view and getting into how a truly feel about this option.....
I have read people say things such as "Ridership would improve because people would ride it from FIU's main campus to the engineering center and international mall" (Thats paraphrased). My biggest complaint about that argument is that the initial station planned was for 117th avenue where the dump is. This is a little less than 1/2 a mile from the dorms and the stadium. If people were unlikely to walk to that metrorail station, I really hate to say this but they are very unlikely to pay the money to ride metrorail and then walk the 1 mile from the proposed 107th avenue station to either of the malls. My point is that if they are unwilling to walk to a station less than a half a mile away, it is very unlikely they will walk to the malls. This is an unrealistic assumption.
There would be ridership between the main campus and the engineering center, but that would be reliant on the expansion of the programs at that campus or the expansion of the overall facility there. At present, that campus does not warrent the construction of a multi-billion-dollar system for a couple hundred students. If that campus were as busy as the main campus, then it would definately warrent the construction of a line feeding that campus.
I personally agree with the plan to put a light rail or streetcar system between the two campuses. Installing these systems is significantly cheaper than the heavy-rail alternative that is Metrorail. If the area were to work with FIU, Sweethingyer, Doral, and FDOT, then they could easily build a light rail line that feeds both campuses and even the malls, thus increasing connections between the two stations (117th and 107th avenues) as well as the campuses.
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Post by FIUFan on Sept 15, 2006 10:03:12 GMT -5
Steve, you speak of issues with continuing the line down 107 to the Flagami area, which is clearly more middle-class than say Sweethingyer, and that there would be serious resistance to that. Doesn't Sweethingyer aspire to be more like that area? and if so wouldn't that 'heavy rail line' set them back immeasurably? I think it would and for what? So that FIU can connect its Engineering campus to the main campus? It's clearly not worth it.
After all this discussion it has become quite clear to me that the line should be built down the Turnpike and into the western edge of Tamiami park. What's there? A county dump and some batting cages. Also heading south in the future will be much easier as you follow the turnpike to the Town and Country Mall (if that's what they still call it). There would be very few right of way issues, there's a large Hospital there on Bird and your heading right down to a large population center and more very active malls.
Cutting and dicing through Flagami, Miller Drive and Sunset are all losing propositions in my view. This is a big project, keep it out of small neighborhoods.
p.s. to 4life's point about Miami Springs, I think that Steve was referring to the north side of MS's where the line and the canal are and where it borders Hialeah. That area is nothing like rest of MS's.
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Post by Steve on Sept 15, 2006 10:34:36 GMT -5
The area I was referring to was actually Westchester if we follow 107th south.... Like was said in the above post, I was refferring to the north side of Miami Springs where it borders Hialeah.
The only way I could possibly see this line working is by following the turnpike. It offers the best options from an expandability standpoint as well as a cost standpoint. It would be much easier to implement because of right-of-way aquisition and would allow more space for the required parking facilities and potential joint development.
Joint development is great because basically the county leases that land out to an outside source and they build something there that pays the county for the use of the land. This money then rolls over into operating expenses and system expansion and also encourages people to both live and work nearer the rail lines. If there is any joint development at the 117th avenue station, FIU should jump all over that and put dorms in as a joint development project. It would offer us a way to expand into Tamiami park without having to actually legaly fight to put something into the park!
By the way, I apologize for making all that I said last night in multiple posts... I would type one idea, look at a map, come up with another idea, and then look at the site and come up with another idea and it was easier to just type it in multiple posts than to go back and edit into one excessively long post.
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Post by FIUFootballer on Sept 15, 2006 19:40:17 GMT -5
p.s. to 4life's point about Miami Springs, I think that Steve was referring to the north side of MS's where the line and the canal are and where it borders Hialeah. That area is nothing like rest of MS's. I think you are referring to the town of Medley (those homes along the canal). Medley borders Miami Springs and Hialeah. Just build the d**n thing already!
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Post by fiurulez on Sept 16, 2006 14:07:02 GMT -5
What difficult past? Ask around Sweethingyer and you'll see how many people would love to have the line going down 107th. Why are you so against it anyway? It's not like you live on the proposed line, or do you? If that's the case, I understand why you're pissed. Uh, let's see. For the longest time any time it rained, you'd get 6 feet of water in your street. Those apartments on the corner of 8th and 107 were notorious for drugs and shootings. The area wasn't really the most desirable. But things are changing for the better. I think Pepe Diaz did a good job with that area in the 90's and it's looking rather respectable. That's where my comment comes from. They have a chance to make that a really nice area. And no, as my profile states, I do not live in Sweethingyer. And I don't know what comments I've made to make you think that I'm pi$$ed about anything. I just think that Sweethingyer would be overwhelmed by that line going through there. Once again, if the 'majority' of people wanted that line coming down 107th, the Mayor would not be so apprehensive about it. I'm surprised you living there would want it; seems to me it would lower property values. Why do you want it there? So you majored in creative writing? Flooded for the longest time? Try 2 years, never before, never again. Drugs and shootings? I used to play there as a kid and had friends who lived there. No one flashed a piece and no one snorted anything. My friend, you are confused. As for Jose Diaz, which you affectionately call Pepe, he stole a lot of money from the city for himself. Don't talk about things you have no knowledge of.
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Post by FIUFan on Sept 17, 2006 8:45:00 GMT -5
You know my friend, when every time it rains, the media runs out to your area of town to show dramatic photos of people sloshing through their homes, in knee high water, it leaves a pretty lasting impression. In he 80's that corner of yours was notorious for having an unsavory element (I hope you weren't there back then). And as far as Mr Diaz is concerned, if the allegations and penalties that were associated with him would have been that severe, I'm sure he wouldn't now be a county commissioner.
But instead of trying to discredit me, why don't you stay on point? or do you feel your argument is lost (how ever thin it was).
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Post by Steve on Sept 19, 2006 15:42:01 GMT -5
in a recent article in the Herald, it appears sweethingyer residents don't want this going down 107th either.....
SWEEthingyER City wants involvement in transit planSweethingyer drafted a resolution requesting involvement in the decision-making process of Miami-Dade Transit's Metrorail expansion, which may run through the heart of the city. BY JOSE CASSOLA jcassola@MiamiHerald.com Feeling snubbed by Miami-Dade Transit officials, Sweethingyer commissioners drafted a resolution Wednesday requesting that they be involved in the decision-making process of the Metrorail expansion, which could run through the heart of the city.
Much to the commission's dismay, transit officials are considering expanding Metrorail down Southwest 107th Avenue along the eastern edge of Florida International University campus, which runs on the avenue from Southwest Eighth to 24th streets. The original plan, however, had positioned the train between Southwest 117th Avenue and Florida's Turnpike.
At a commission meeting Monday, city officials said they oppose the idea to change the route from its original location.
''I realize this will benefit a great deal of people overall, but it's also going to affect a great deal of people in our city,'' Vice Mayor Ariel Abelairas said. ``All we are asking now is to have any proposals that affect our city come through City Hall first. The bottom line is we need to be kept informed and we need to be heard.''
The resolution states neither the city commission nor Sweethingyer residents were consulted on this proposal.
Transit officials say Sweethingyer will suffer irreparable harm if the southbound leg of the east-west Metrorail expansion is built along 107th Avenue from State Road 836 to Southwest 12th Street.
''If we go down this route, we need to do right by Sweethingyer, while FDOT designs a concept where our project does not interfere with their plans to improve 107th Avenue,'' said Mario Garcia, chief of the transit planning division.
In the potential scenario, two stops would be built: one near FIU's engineering school in the northeast corner of Southwest 107th Avenue and Flagler Street; the other near the east entrance to the main campus, around Southwest 12th Street.
Transit officials say the 107th Avenue option would better serve FIU's students.
The 117th Avenue alternative, located near the National Hurricane Center west of FIU and Tamiami Park, would force FIU to dramatically expand its shuttle-bus service to get riders from the Metrorail stations.
Sweethingyer officials proposed yet another alternative: a smaller, more aesthetic train, such as a light rail or a trolley at or near street level instead of the bulky, elevated Metrorail.
''We feel the routing should at least remain as originally proposed,'' Mayor Manny Maroño said.
``We are willing to work with FIU and Transit on this matter, but this is not going to happen until we at least have our voices heard and approve the final plan.''
FIU will hold a two-hour east-west workshop at 6:30 p.m. Wednesday at the Graham Conference Center, 11200 SW Eighth St. Sweethingyer residents and business owners are encouraged to attend.
''I agree with whatever ultimate decision the commission feels is in our best interest,'' said business owner Ernesto Cordero, owner of Fiesta Palace restaurant at Southwest First Street and 107th Avenue. ``The Metrorail in Sweethingyer may or may not affect my business, but in the end that is up to the city to decide.''
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Post by fiurulez on Sept 19, 2006 16:04:45 GMT -5
You know my friend, when every time it rains, the media runs out to your area of town to show dramatic photos of people sloshing through their homes, in knee high water, it leaves a pretty lasting impression. In he 80's that corner of yours was notorious for having an unsavory element (I hope you weren't there back then). And as far as Mr Diaz is concerned, if the allegations and penalties that were associated with him would have been that severe, I'm sure he wouldn't now be a county commissioner. But instead of trying to discredit me, why don't you stay on point? or do you feel your argument is lost (how ever thin it was). Dear Sir, I only want you to realize the truth; that you are mistaken. If those apartments had a troubled past in the 80's what affect does that have 20 years later? As for the rain, since you love focusing on that, once again, it happened twice and the drainage system was fixed since then. During the last flooding, the news stations came by only to find that we were dry, unlike Homestead. As for staying on topic, this is the topic. You're against the Metrorail going through Sweethingyer and you gave lousy excuses. Yes I’ve discredited you. You're sweeping generalizations and old time stories have nothing to do with this issue. "Troubled past" what city doesn't have one?
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Post by FIUFan on Sept 19, 2006 16:56:05 GMT -5
Dear Sir, I only want you to realize the truth; that you are mistaken. If those apartments had a troubled past in the 80's what affect does that have 20 years later? As for the rain, since you love focusing on that, once again, it happened twice and the drainage system was fixed since then. During the last flooding, the news stations came by only to find that we were dry, unlike Homestead. As for staying on topic, this is the topic. You're against the Metrorail going through Sweethingyer and you gave lousy excuses. Yes I’ve discredited you. You're sweeping generalizations and old time stories have nothing to do with this issue. "Troubled past" what city doesn't have one? Wasn't my original point that Sweethingyer was overcoming a troubled past? Then you say, "what difficult past?", and I proceed to list the 'past'. I mean just because you're not old enough to know the history of the city in which you live, don't blame me. Yes, I think going down 107th is not a very good idea. I think it chops through a small community and will have to dead-end at FIU. While going further out west will pick up the mall traffic and as you come south down the turnpike you can more easily head into the heart of Kendall. But once again, instead of arguing symantics, why don't you explain to us why it is such a good idea to come down 107th.
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